.png)
Pflugerville on Fire
Our first episode drops August 31! This podcast mini-series will inform you about the initiative to defund the Pflugerville Fire Department. Listen on all major podcasting platforms. Subscribe to get the latest episodes. We have some great guests lined up!
Pflugerville on Fire
Anthony Nguyen on Funding Emergency Services
Discover the complexities of local governance and the financial intricacies that shape our emergency services in Pflugerville. Join us as we sit down with tech sales engineer and community advocate Anthony Nguyen. Anthony sheds light on the controversial issue of abolishing sales tax revenue for the fire department and explains the complicated two-step process required by state law. With his deep involvement in local government, Anthony offers invaluable insights into how sales tax is allocated in Pflugerville compared to neighboring areas like Round Rock and Wells Branch.
Uncover the financial hurdles and political challenges that have shaped the Pflugerville Fire Department, Emergency Service District 2 (ESD2) over the past decade. From their reliance on property and sales taxes to the new property tax limits and the creation of ESD17 in Wells Branch, we explore the multi-layered funding and management of these critical services. We discuss the broader implications for emergency medical services and the community's response to potential cuts in ambulance services, emphasizing the pivotal role of community involvement in driving change.
Finally, learn about the tax allocation for public safety services and the substantial role that city staff on budget allocations. Learn how community advocacy can influence council decisions and bring about meaningful changes. We also delve into the potential consequences of eliminating sales tax and the challenges of transitioning emergency services. Don’t miss our upcoming guest, ESD2 Board of Commissioner Vice President April Griffin, as we continue to tackle these vital issues affecting Pflugerville.
Fox Alarm in ESD 2, Fox.
Speaker 2:All right, anthony. So, given everything that you know and you definitely know a lot about this from this November, whether to abolish the sales tax revenue for the fire department, how are you going to vote, if you don't mind saying?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll vote for it. You know I'm hoping that it's a shift right, but it's a two-step process because of the laws of the state. We have to take it away from one entity and then another entity. The city should pick it up, and then the city can give it back to ESD-2, and ESD-2 can continue resuming the same level of service with ambulance transport, and everybody will be happy, right? So that's how I see it right now.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to Pflugerville on Fire. I'm your host, chris Wolfe. In this episode, we're interviewing Anthony Wynn. He moved to Pflugerville on Fire. I'm your host, chris Wolfe. In this episode, we're interviewing Anthony Wynn. He moved to Pflugerville in 2008 from Flint, michigan. He's an engineer by trade who currently does tech sales, and he's been an outspoken critic of not just the fire department but also the city of Pflugerville. What's special about Anthony is he doesn't just sit on his couch, you know, typing things out. He's gotten out and has gotten engaged in his government and has done some things. He served as the ISD on the ISD Bond Oversight Committee, the Travis County Appraisal Board and the PCDC, which is the Pflugerville Community Development Corporation. He's got a vast and broad experience and I think that for most of our listeners, you're probably with the fire department going to vote no on this, but even so, hopefully there's some listeners out there that want to vote yes. Right, it's important that we listen to all of the perspectives and I believe that Anthony is someone who cares about the community. I know he's a rational person who does a really good job articulating his position.
Speaker 2:Fair warning to our listeners the show does run a little bit long. We're at the 50-minute mark and there was just so much good stuff in there I didn't really want to take it out. I kind of just let Anthony talk and I learned a lot speaking with him, and I'm sure you will as well. All right, anthony Wynn, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on. So we decided we'd bring you on. You were just saying that you do tech sales and you can boil down complicated things and make them simple, and you and I had a conversation earlier, I guess last week, and I told my wife Lacey that that was something that was perfect, that you could come on and kind of break some of this down for us. So, anthony, one thing that I'd like to ask you about can you explain how the sales tax works that we pay right now in Pflugerville?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So in the state of Texas there's a state sales tax of six and a quarter percent. So everybody pays six and a quarter. The state allows local municipalities to add two cents to it. So that's where we get eight point two five percent. So most places, if you live in the urban area, pays eight point two five percent because that two cents is going to local municipalities. So to get that two percent the local municipalities usually have to have an election to decide where it goes.
Speaker 1:So in here in Pflugerville 1% of it goes right to the city of Pflugerville. It amounts to about $20 million. A half cent of it goes to the Economic Development Corporation, pcdc $10 million and the other half cent goes to ESD2. So we've decided to give it to the city and they can spend it on whatever they want police parks, roads, economic development, new jobs at ESD for emergency management In Round Rock. A percent goes to the city, a half a cent goes to property tax relief. So they had a vote years ago that says whatever you collect for that half cent, we want to lower property tax. So instead of raising property taxes every year by 8% or 3.5%, whatever that sales tax comes in, they have to apply that to lower their tax rate.
Speaker 1:So that's why they got like a 30, some odd, right, I think 31 or 33 and it might change with the new budget year right, sales tax. So wells branch, they take a half cent. They have a library, they wanted to build a library with that half cent in the etj. They have cap metro. We want transit right, so that two percent is available for a number of different things. You can do for community colleges too, so. But the people have to rise up and say do a petition and say, hey, we want this half cent, one cent, right. You can go down to an eighth of a cent and delegate it. In most places they're all at two percent because everybody figured out the rules and absorbed it 10 years ago. Nobody took that half cent in the etj. That's where esd2 came along and said oh well, there's this half cent in the etj.
Speaker 2:Nobody has it right and so you grabbed it right and there was a vote, and this is about the 2010 to 2013, about the 2010.
Speaker 1:The 2013. Oh, the latest one. Yeah, very interesting.
Speaker 2:Well, I got to ask you what prompted you to get involved in your local government the way you are.
Speaker 1:Well, I moved into Pflugerville in 2010. Well, I moved into the area in 2008 and bought a house in 2010 in the ETJ Actually has a Round Rock mailing address. Green Ridge is the subdivision, but it was Pflugerville. Etj Actually has a Round Rock mailing address.
Speaker 2:Green Ridge is the subdivision but it was Pflugerville ETJ.
Speaker 1:Extra territorial jurisdiction you got it, which simply meant that someday, if we were to be part of a city, it would be Pflugerville and not Round Rock, and our schools were Pflugerville. But we were just in the county right and didn't pay any city taxes. But they were in the process of annexing us, which means we would become part of the city and we would start paying a city tax. And I said, well, how much is that going to cost me? And they said about a thousand dollars. My house was around 215,000 at the time and, yeah, back then the city tax rate was in the 60, I want to say 63 cents and it was about $1,200 more. So I don't escrow my taxes. I pay them once a year and that's per year.
Speaker 1:Yep. So in January I wrote a check. I remember the first year was about $4,000. And then the next year it went up to $4,200. And I was like, well, what am I getting for this extra $1,200 that I'm paying to the city? And nobody could really answer that question.
Speaker 1:And so I started researching it and looking into it and they said, well, you'd be part of the city of Pflugerville, you get Pflugerville services, and what is that? And it turns out it's oh, pflugerville police. Right, when you call 911, you want the police to come at your door instead of the county sheriff coming at your door. And the complaint was, when somebody needed the police, it was the county sheriff and it could take 15, 20 minutes, where the city of Pflugerville would be a lot less time. Well, I did test it the first year, really, and they were. The knock on our door one night called them. They were there in 60 minutes, or, yeah, six minutes, wow. And I was like, oh, wow, this is great. And it's like you must not have much to do, because I used to live in michigan and I've had my house broken into and they would never come out, and this was flint michigan, so it's not the best part of town, but you pay for additional police, okay, well, that sounds like that's worth it for better police.
Speaker 1:And so I just started researching the city and signed up for city council meetings to listen to them. Just to know, you know, am I getting my $1,200 a year more in services to be part of the city, and I wanted to live in an affordable place. That's why I chose this ETJ area at the time, and my number one thing was to try to keep it affordable as much as possible, and so whenever they would talk about taxes property taxes if I felt it was unjust, then I would start speaking out at city council meetings. Actually, my first meeting I spoke out at was in 2010, at a school board meeting.
Speaker 1:That school board meeting, it was in the paper I read that the school board wanted to raise the debt service to the state maximum, which is 50 cents, and I was like what the heck? Why do they want to charge a maximum school debt rate? And it turns out nobody else in the area charged 50 cents. And I was like what the heck? Why do they want to charge the maximum school debt rate? And it turns out nobody else in the area charged 50 cents. Austin I see what's much lower. Round Rock I see what's much lower. And I remember going there and speaking out and you know they still ended up doing it.
Speaker 2:But at least you were paying attention.
Speaker 1:I was starting to pay attention, yeah yeah, I asked the questions and so years later, 2016, I started going to city council member meetings and city of Pflugerville actually at the time they were lowering their tax rates. So Jeff Coleman was the mayor and was at 60 cents and he ran on a platform of, hey, we're going to lower the rate, and it steadily. For like eight years 2010 to 2018, they kept on lowering the rate. It didn't mean we paid less city taxes because of our valuation, but they started lowering it. But then, around 2016, 17, they started increasing the rate. And then that's when I spoke up at city council meetings. I got to know all the city council members and I actually got them to keep the rate the same one year and I was the only speaker.
Speaker 1:I was like hey why are we raising the rate? Our property values are rising and you're increasing the rate. I don't see any need for that. And since I was the only one and it was like my first meeting I was kind of in the honeymoon period they actually went the, they actually went against staff and lowered it and I was like, wow, this does work if you speak out and get involved.
Speaker 2:But you have to educate yourself for that to work and that takes. So one great thing about you is you've got a good demeanor and you've got the experience across several avenues that you can kind of explain this really well. So for our listeners, can you briefly run through? How did we get to where we are today with the fire department?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's a long drawn-out story over 10 years. I'll try to be concise. So 10 years ago, in 2013, we had our ESD. They had two primary revenue streams a property tax of $0.10 and a sales tax of a half a cent. We were growing at the time in 2013, and felt like they needed more money, and they actually went to the city council saying, hey, you guys are growing, can you give us some extra money to help subsidize our service? Well, the city council said no, their tax rate was very high and they didn't want to pay any more money. They couldn't do it. They're like we don't handle emergency services. That's your role. So ESD2 said, okay, the city's not going to give us any money. They actually tried to do an overlay back then, but the county commissioner said no, right, because, as it turns out, the city council at times were so against it that the county commissioner said right, we're not going to do an overlay. Let's add another sales tax of a half cent to the areas in ESG-2 that wasn't charging a sales tax. And so that was the second sales tax election that passed by six votes, and I wasn't really paying attention to the time. It was 2013. And actually I was fighting Austin City Council for Uber. I was in Uber trying to come around and they I was fighting Austin City Council for Uber. Oh wow, uber was trying to come around and they wanted to shut it down, and I was kind of in that battle in my political career.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, so ESD2 got that second sales tax and they said at the time and correct me if I'm wrong that it was for ALS Ambulance Life Support System and there's some debate whether it included ambulance transport or not, but I think we can agree that the amount of money they got from that was a windfall. I think in your previous podcast you said it was a blowout. It turned into millions of dollars and in 2017, they decided to hey, we got all this money, we should do something with it, which was let's add on some ambulances and let's do transport in addition to ALS. So ESD2 started doing ambulance transport in 2017, 18, 19, 20. Transport in 2017, 18, 19, 20.
Speaker 1:And in 2020, what happened was and I've been thinking about whose fault this is, and I'm going to say it's your counselor's fault we passed SB2 in 2019, the state legislature, which lowered how much you can increase property taxes by three and a half percent. And I think your counsel advised ESD2, hey, if we don't do something right now, you're going to be running out of money. And they came up with these forecasts and they asked again the city hey, we need some money $2.7 million to continue to do ambulance transport services, and if we don't get it we won't be able to do it. Well, city council at that time said no, won't be able to do it. Well, city council at that time said no, we don't think you need it. And so you guys, esd2, went back to the county commission.
Speaker 1:Let's do an overlay. They did an overlay, but the city had to give consent. The city didn't give consent, so they only had a election in the other areas outside the city. It was created ESD17, primarily in the areas outside the city. It was created ESD 17, primarily in the Wells Branch area. Then ESD 2 used a loophole that said, well, now that it's created, we can just annex without city consent. And so we had an election in the city and it failed. And then, after it failed, that was when the threats of losing our ambulance transport services happened. Right, it wasn't, we'll say, it wasn't ESD-2, but it was community members. Firefighters outside of ESD-2 threatened to stop the ambulance service, which you know. The board said that they would if they didn't, if it didn't pass and the city didn't give a subsidy.
Speaker 2:And to add some, context, once 17 passed right and some people were paying for ambulance service, the really ESD 2 couldn't continue to provide it. Right, that was under the purview of ESD 17.
Speaker 1:There's some debate in state law, but generally, yes, if you have another district that is providing service, then other districts couldn't. But in actuality, esd-17 was a front, it was a board that met, but they outsourced everything to ESD-2. Esd-2 was still providing the ambulance transport service. They're the first responders, they're providing basic life support. They just weren't taking them the last mile right. They weren't hitching a ride, even though they show up and they do all the basic stuff, right.
Speaker 2:They just weren't giving them the ride and so right and to be fair that is like, uh, you know, you're familiar with scope creep, you know where, you know, okay, we got called, call the firefighters, all right, they patch them up. All right, they stabilize them, you know at what point, like does the actual transport? You know, does that come outside the scope of what a fire department does, you know?
Speaker 1:Well, probably A traditional fire department. You just put out fire. That's what you are for. But I would say, legally, the legal name is Travis County Emergency Service District. There's no fire in there, there's no ambulance in there, there's no rescue, it's emergency services collect a tax and the board decides do you spend it on fire, do you spend it on rescue, do you spend it on ambulance? And it's totally at their discretion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the initial intent many years ago was a fire department. But I'm good, I'm glad that the board saw the need for ambulance, because medical services is. You look at the previous numbers, it's like four to one, three to one. There's many more medical service requests than fire, which is great. Buildings aren't burning down but people are having health issues. So if I were on the board, why not shift some of that funding to more paramedics than firefighters? Because that's where the need is, and I think some of the board members are kind of stuck. Well, we originally, whenever it was 30 years ago, set up this fire department. But the need is in medical. So you can adjust, you can change right and and they should have, and you guys, and they did right you started providing.
Speaker 2:you know you had four ambulances right, and we talked about it in the first podcast. That's out. But you know that's where the county came in and you were talking about the difference between sheriff and municipal. Just the time to get an ambulance out here was an issue. Do you recall anything about that?
Speaker 1:Right, right. Well, I hear that the county had two ambulance stations and ESD-2 would supplement that. I think that was the intent. Yes, but I think the reality is it's Austin-Travis County EMS, right, and most of the action is in Austin. So if you have a shared pool of ambulances, I want to say they have what? 30 or 40. Right. It's going to get sucked into Austin, because that's where the action is.
Speaker 2:Just like if it was the Pflugerville. Travis County, you could expect them to get sucked into the Pflugerville and this is kind of like when I did my Uber days.
Speaker 1:Same thing, right. People need transport in downtown Austin. You naturally get sucked into that, and probably Pflugerville is, you know. There's 65,000, 70,000 people. Austin is 800,000 now, so all of the action is always going to be in the densely populated areas.
Speaker 2:The more densely populated it is, the more services you require, and they'll suck away that.
Speaker 1:But if you want the best service, you want dedicated, localized service as much as possible, and I can see why Austin Travis decided to pull them. But maybe they would argue and this is a question for them is were they really pulled away or were they just pulled away because there was not enough action? In Pflugerville? Our recent prime minister said the same thing. You guys don't need three or four ambulances, you only need two. Right, and if you want it free, then you only have two. But the city decided to pay $ 1.3 million just to have one on standby, just in case, right, and it won't be pulled because it's just in the city of pflugerville, right?
Speaker 2:and that has to do with what we would call level zero. Like you know, however deep your ambulances are, like you've got three. Once you want three calls pop at the same time. Now you've got none, so four is better, and I think really five would even be better than that. But it all has dollars and cents, right? You've got to pay for every one of those, right, right?
Speaker 1:It's a cost of doing it. You don't want burnout, right, Austin Travis? They're probably going from one call to another because they just have enough to meet the current demand and nobody wants burnout from their first responders. So there needs to be some downtime and you need some extra capacity just waiting there.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Well. Anthony, let's say it's fast forward to November. The sales tax if it gets repealed and the voters vote yes for Prop A, what do you think is going to happen with that money? Vote yes for Prop A. What do you think is going?
Speaker 1:to happen with that money? Well, if voters vote yes, then it will free up a half cent in the district for some other entity to grab it. Most likely the city has expressed interest to take it. They would be a fool not to take it, but they can't just take it. They can call an election for it and then take it. They would be a fool not to take it, but they can't just take it. They can call an election for it and then take it. If it passes, then they'll get it.
Speaker 1:And the intent of this drive, as I understand it, is that they would take it for emergency services and I would hope that they would take it and negotiate with ESD2. Nobody wants to set up their own EMS system, fire department. That doesn't make sense. We've already made that investment with Travis County ESD2. So you give it back to them, some portion of it. But now the city will be in a better negotiating standpoint because they're collecting the money and ESD2 will have to itemize the cost and there'll be a little bit more control on those costs because the city is collecting it and it won't be just a rate, a half cent rate or percentage rate that you get where there's no caps, it'll be more defined and now that it's in the hands of the city, they're elected leaders. If we don't like them, you know? I have all their phone numbers, I can talk to them.
Speaker 1:I can go to city council members and kick them out With the ESD2 board. I can't really talk to them, right? They're not elected, right? They are appointed by the county commissioners and the county commissioners. They have a vested interest in more ESDs because they're really responsible for ambulance services, so, but they have many demands for roads and safety and so if they can have more. Esd2s, then they don't have to worry about Invest so much in the mess.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. I hadn't really thought about it like that Right.
Speaker 1:So if you're, you know, and I've been watching their meetings, just like in most of the ESD2 meetings, it's like yes, it's like unanimous.
Speaker 1:We all five agree. We all five agree. Right, they never have any dissension. They don't really debate, at least with city council. There's a lot of four, three decisions and they debate all night long on issues. So at least there's a proper vetting of it. And I don't get the sense that ESDs do that. They're just there to you know, a stepping stone to the next, you know next job. Right, april, I think, ran for city council. Rico tried to run for house representative. Right, it's like a stepping stone and they're not really doing it for the right reasons. I sometimes feel.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know, I don't know. I mean I'll encourage listeners to go on and like, look at their resumes, because there's pretty.
Speaker 1:Have you looked?
Speaker 2:at the resumes of the. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean they're pretty impressive people.
Speaker 1:No, no, yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah, I'm not, you know, I know rico, right, I was on the travis didn't go to harvard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's a harvard graduate so smart, smart guy, smart guy and an ambitious guy, I would say so anthony, you said so many good things that I have to. I don't want to run over on time but I have to go back on um. So you said the city would keep a portion of that and then try to negotiate with the fire department to provide the other service. I think. What do you think about, like as a taxpayer, if I pay part of my taxes to esd? I know that that money is going towards, you know, public safety in my community. Does it make you uncomfortable that part of your tax dollars would go to a city and then you wouldn't really know how many of those would go back into your public safety?
Speaker 1:Definitely, yeah, I mean, I'm an equal opportunity critic of all government entities.
Speaker 2:I know you are yes.
Speaker 1:So it is a risk that the city would get it and they would spend it on a water park, a city hall, a municipal center.
Speaker 2:We don't have time to explain to the listeners, but listeners, Google everything that Anthony just said.
Speaker 1:He's very on it. Think that the council members want the best emergency services as a whole and that they would do the right thing and spend it on emergency services right, because that is the intent of the petitioners is to put the city in a better spot to negotiate reasonable rates, and we don't want Travis County ESD 2 to go away. Put the city in a better spot to negotiate reasonable rates and we don't want Travis County ESD 2 to go away. Right, they've been doing a phenomenal job up until they stopped transporting and let's continue to have you guys do that.
Speaker 1:And this debate, when I look at it, is really about an opinion Do we have enough money or not? Right, right, and the board at ESD2 is saying, no, we don't. We need a subsidy $2.7 million and the city and their consultants say you got enough money and why can't we get together and go? Well, maybe we do, and if you actually start going in the red, then you ask for money. But right now, when you look at the books, when I look at, my opinion is that it sure does seem like you have enough money and those forecasts from 2020 said that you would be in the red this year, next year, but there's like 40 million in the bank. You increased your reserve policy from you know I think it was three months to six months, so you have a significant reserve. So 2.7 million that you're asking for the city is chump change. So why not continue to office service? And I don't think this whole effort would have happened if ambulance services ceased to exist For sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think if they had kept running it we wouldn't be talking about it. What's the city's annual operating budget? Is it $80 or?
Speaker 1:$90 million, depending on how you look at it. Right, they have utilities, which is yeah in the 80s and 90s, but just for the property tax, for the city police parks, I want to say it's 50 60 million. It goes up every year and I stopped looking at it the last couple of years, but yes the reason why I say that is I hear people say like well why, doesn't the est just absorb it?
Speaker 2:but the city is such a bigger entity. I don't understand why don't they meet halfway or why doesn't the city absorb it.
Speaker 1:Well, the city has its own challenges. Right, they were set up, they would argue. They're only set up for police, roads, parks, right those things. And fire and ambulance it wasn't in their purview. It was the county for ambulances and we had ESD2 for fire. So they never handled it before, they were never required to handle it, they were never mandated. They were asked in 2013, 10 years ago. The city said no. They were asked again in 2020. The city said no Because you know they were and this is some you know they don't want to change, just like you know.
Speaker 1:Maybe the old timers at ESDT said we're a fire department, we don't want to change and the city's like we're a city yeah we're just a city and so we all serve the community, and so we've got to think what's the best for the community and keep that in mind. And I think there's been a lot of bad blood on both sides over the years, that I think egos have gotten in the way of having a solution that everybody can agree upon. Everybody's just fixated on what they think is right.
Speaker 2:Everybody's loved ones live here. Everybody's got people they care about. Nobody wants bad first response for sure. All right, so you're like you said. You're an equal opportunity critic. In your opinion, who's the better steward of taxpayer dollars, either city of Pflugerville or ESD2?
Speaker 1:In this case because I can unelect my city council members. I would say that the city, because I can talk to them and I can vote them out. I can't vote out the ESD2 commissioners. If I had it my way, there was a bill that was working through. If we had elected ESD2 commissioners, then that probably would work for me. It'd be a good compromise. Like they do in Houston and parts of the state, they actually have elected ESD 2 commissioners so that if we don't like what they're doing, we can kick them out. Right. In this case it's taxation without representation. Right, they're taxing us, but we can't kick them out and the county commissioners won't.
Speaker 1:So it's just a quasi board that gets together and just approves everything. They never reject anything, they hardly debate, and so in the framework that we have right now, I would say I would take my chances with the city, even though I don't like a lot of decisions that they made. I think there is a chance that they would take the money and spend it on other things that aren't emergency services. But at least I can go talk to them and speak out, and because I have been able to affect change with them over the years, I see my chances of affecting change with them better than the board at ESD2, which right they generally. I've never seen them go against staff recommendations and they have public comment, but I feel like it's just a show. I haven't ever seen them change their mind because of something that somebody said a public comment but I have seen that happen at city council members and I have talked a number of times and, yeah, over the years they actually have lowered the tax rate.
Speaker 1:But has that ever happened at an ESD2 meeting? Probably not. Has people talked at those meetings? Probably not. Well, they have lowered the tax rate, but has that ever happened at an ESD2 meeting? Probably not. Have people talked at those meetings? Probably not.
Speaker 1:Well, they have lowered the tax rate Right, but lower it beyond what staff recommended, right? So in the city council meetings, right, staff would recommend this and they would actually go against them. And actually the first time I did that, the city manager left and went to Galveston and I kind of felt like he was pissed when he went against his way. But ESD2 have lowered the tax rate over the last three years but it wasn't really because of the board saying hey, we want a lower rate. It was because city staff presented a lower rate and they just said okay and because of the laws SB3 that said they couldn't raise it by 3.5%. So they were just following the laws and there's some complexities in there why they had to lower it. But yeah, if the current rate collects more than 3.5%, then they have to lower it and that's why they were lowering it, because the law dictated that they had to.
Speaker 2:Did you get a chance to look at the Perryman report that asserted that ESDs were more efficient model than municipal?
Speaker 1:I went over that quickly and the details were a little bit lacking, but my summary read of it was that ESDs are more cost effective than municipally run emergency service district. I would love to ask them how they calculated the cost of a municipal, because in a municipal all you know is the overall city tax rate, which is higher, the overall city tax rate which is higher, right? So I don't think they break it out by tax rate that, oh, this is. They claim that it was 12 to 18 cents for municipal, but they didn't really explain how they determined that number, because I've looked at others, like Round Rock, and they don't say, oh, we spent X amount.
Speaker 2:I know Round Rock is in the 30 cent area for their overall city budget, but that's for police, parks, roads and they do fire, but how do you?
Speaker 1:know what is a percentage of the fire? I guess you could look at the budget. Did they look at the budget, look at the cost and then converted it to a tax rate? But in general, let's say that it's true that ESDs are more efficiently run. I would say instinctually that's probably correct because you're focused. You're focused on doing generally a limited set of services emergency response, where the city can do a lot of different things, including emergency response, where the city can do a lot of different things, including emergency response. And when you raise more money, you have to spend more money on management and overhead, so that costs more money. I do generally believe in more localized control of government. Where you focus on one thing will generally be more cost effective than trying to do too much at one Right a broad scope.
Speaker 2:The broader it is, the less efficient it becomes generally be more cost effective than trying to do too much at once. Right a broad scope. The broader it is, the less efficient it becomes.
Speaker 1:Right, you just have to hire just way more overhead to manage it and that costs a lot more money and everybody's covering their butt. So they tend to spend more money and I see what has happened to the city right. The amount that they pay for things is just ungodly in some cases. So in general, yes, the more you can focus, the more you can get services down to the local levels. They're the same. All politics is local. I do believe in that and um and that. I'll say this one thing on this I was on my hoa board and they wanted to install a pool, for you know, we had some extra money and people wanted a pool. When I looked at the cost of like in my house at the time, it was like $50,000. So I looked at it for HOA and they said, oh no, we can't do a residential pool, it has to be ADA compliant, all this stuff. And it was like $180,000.
Speaker 1:I'm like why he's like well, that's just what it is. And so whenever you bring in people, government, entities, with more money, they'll find a way to spend it and make it cost more, and you see that all the time. So, really efficient government is not too big, not too small, but in the middle ground. And trying to achieve that middle ground where you get all the services you want but it's not exorbitant or less, is really the point. And so in my activism I always try to find that middle ground that we can have everything we want, but not pay too much, but not be too small.
Speaker 1:Where we're ineffective and you know, are we there now, right, an argument could be said well, maybe ESD2 is too big, right, they got, you know, they got all this money and they found a reason to spend it. So maybe we should centralize it to the city, right, but maybe the city's too big right. What is the optimal size? And that's an art, that's, you know, a delicate balancing act that we're all trying to achieve, and you know it's an opinion at the end of the day, I know with the fire department.
Speaker 2:Everything you buy, if you put like rescue for fire use, for some magical reason it's twice the price.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty wild, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I know you've gotten into the ESD2 budget. That Perryman report said that the Pflugerville Fire Department was the second most efficient fire department in the region. What do you think about how the board has spent the case? I didn't see that in that report.
Speaker 1:I remember a meeting where your chief talked about that, and so I can't really give an opinion. That report that you sent me was just about overall ESDs compared to municipalities.
Speaker 2:Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1:Because I looked for that, because I wanted to see how they arrived at that number, but that wasn't in that one report.
Speaker 2:All right. So I know you've looked at the ESD2 budget. What do you think about how they've spent money in it?
Speaker 1:budget. What do you think about how they've spent money in it? Well, as I said, I do think that they have collected a lot more sales tax than they realized, and you know they found places to spend it right on additional ambulances, which are, you know. I don't know why they cost as much as they do.
Speaker 1:It's like everything, but they're like an F-150 truck right which is under $100,000, but you put ambulance in, it's $600, $800, even $1 million, right, I guess, to be fair, it's an F-550, so I don't know what those go for, okay.
Speaker 2:But I tell you you put a box on the back of that thing, it gets very expensive, that's for, you know, I'd like to think that they are trying to be conservative, they're looking at the future.
Speaker 1:Maybe they're being too worrisome about the future and have you know they have a number of vacancies, right, I think I heard a figure over 100. If you include the cadets, it's even more, and so if you don't hire them, that's your biggest cost. So you have a lot of savings they call it vacancy savings that you pad the budget with but you never really fill it. So you have these reserves every year, and so when you cry wolf, that oh, we need more money you know that I don't like that, because they do have the money.
Speaker 1:So just continue to do the services for the fees and taxes you're already collecting, and I think everyone would be happy. And let bygones be bygones. Whatever happened in the past, just let it go, and I think you guys will be fiscally solvent going forward. Because when I looked at the numbers and the city has looked at the numbers you have the funds to do it and you're already showing up. So why can't you just go? You have to get the ambulance back to your station. Why can't you just take it to the hospital?
Speaker 2:Right, right. Well, I mean to be fair. The ambulance isn't going If they're not transporting though. It's just a fire apparatus, but right now.
Speaker 1:Right now.
Speaker 2:Right, right For sure. All right, Anthony, let me ask you a question. Given what you know from your experience on PCDC and everything else, how much has the city staff impacted where we are today? How much has the city staff?
Speaker 1:impacted where we are today. Well, I think staff is everything right. Staff recommendations to these boards and city council members. 95% of2 board was asking the city, which will ask staff hey, can we afford $2.7 million? They're going to be like no, I got all these roadways, I got all these things to fund and I don't have $2.7 million when they literally have over $500 million in the bank.
Speaker 1:You include all the bonds, but even in the reserves it's you know 2.7 million. They could afford it if they wanted to, but it's you know. They treat it like it's their money, right, just like the esd2 says well, we're a fire department and that's all we're supposed to be, right. They're kind of dug in that and the city should pay something, right. So when you ask our city staff city manager you know, can I have $2.7 million?
Speaker 1:She's going to be like no, we've never paid a subsidy, we've never done it. So they're going to recommend no, and that will sway heavily on the council, right? The city manager doesn't want to do it, so we're going to say no. They'll say that they looked at the numbers and they don't need it, and so, generally, that's where I found you have to work if you really want things done. It's the administrators, the city managers, the chief. You got to convince them that everything will be okay and they'll go along, especially if you don't have a strong board, if you don't have strong council that fights back, that pushes back and challenges them. Well then, 99% of their recommendations just get approved. So we have to convince them to give a little or push back at council meetings. But that's tough, right. There's the old phrase you know never fight city hall, and I have done it, and it is not easy, right, you got to put yourself out there.
Speaker 2:Not too many people can say that, but you can.
Speaker 1:And it's not easy. But yeah. But you know I seldom ever talk to staff, but I realize that's where the recommendations. But I say, hey, you know, I believe power to the people and they call these public meetings, so that's your opportunity to talk and everyone needs to use that power to talk to them. And I found at least my city council will listen to me, not all the time but generally. You know over the years they have listened and they will do the right thing Well that's encouraging.
Speaker 2:I think maybe if more people, you think, if more people got involved, it would make a difference Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Because those city council?
Speaker 2:meetings get pretty sparse in there, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's tough and there is definitely a honeymoon period, because I've seen them change their vote on this annexation on Rowe Lane, where this lady said I don't want this development. She had never talked before. So if it's your first time talking, they'll give you a honeymoon, they'll give you deference and they'll side your way. And, yeah, they didn't approve the zoning change. Interesting, because she didn't want it. Because they do, they're elected leaders. They feel a little bit of political pressure and they will change now over the years.
Speaker 1:You know I spoke so much after a while it's like oh, it's anthony again, and so now I probably wore I've, you know, worn out my welcome, if you will, and so you feel like you're less effective now than you were 10 years ago well, I've shifted in in my approach right to adjust, so I don't speak out as much on city council as I used to, but I like to think, you know, like doing this and other things, I still try to stay involved where I can to make a difference, and there's many ways to make a difference.
Speaker 2:It's not just coming on and explaining some of this stuff makes a huge difference. Yeah, and I've done a bunch of these podcasts online too.
Speaker 1:So I try to diversify, but use your voice and especially if you've never spoken right, if they see you, they're like oh, I haven't seen this point of view. And with the esd, if they got some additional people right, because you know, if it's always the same people talking, it's just like, oh, it's, it's that person again and you do wear out your welcome and I've been so involved so long that you know I have worn out my welcome, unfortunately, but I'm still trying to make it, still finding ways to be impactful. Yes, that's great.
Speaker 2:So one thing that I know that the county or the ESD2 Board of Commissioners has done is allow the fire chief to talk to the city manager about tax revenue sharing. Have you looked into or heard anything about that?
Speaker 1:I have not heard anything about that. I don't know how that would work because the revenue, at least for sales tax, is decided by the state comptroller. So whenever the last election was, it goes to that entity. But if you're saying that they would just agree to share it, then I think that's fine If this happens to go through and the city gets it. Well now, yeah, we'll be hopefully.
Speaker 2:There definitely will be some sharing. There'll be some sharing.
Speaker 1:I hope there's a meeting of the minds and they come to an agreement. Of course they'll disagree on the number, but we definitely don't want to lay off anybody from ESD2. And we want to continue our services and bring back ambulance. I don't think anybody is happy with the privates, although I don't want to demean them. I think they're adequately trained, just about everybody else. But they do have a different incentive structure to reap profits that ESD2 doesn't. But the city was kind of forced into that situation when Travis County ESD2 said they weren't going to transport anymore so they had to put somebody in there. But I don't think they wanted to do that. And and you saw the last city council members there was some wavering right like the mayor he was, you know he wanted a whole yeah, we should give people.
Speaker 2:If you're listening, you got time, pull up the city website. It was, I believe. The may 28th city council meeting is very interesting to watch yeah, yeah, and and and.
Speaker 1:So we did have unexpected death. I think you guys call it a sentinel event with the privates. So you know, there's a point. It probably could happen to anybody, but it happened on their watch.
Speaker 2:I gotta stop you there, it's never happened no, it's never happened, where the coroner says that the cause of death was from improper ems oh, oh, okay, all right, all right. Yeah, no, we have, but you lost lies right, yeah, but there's a huge difference between uh trying to save someone and not being able to, and literally okay that was a mistake, but that person was let go.
Speaker 1:They're no longer working, for I forget.
Speaker 2:It's arcadia, or allegiance, yeah and yeah so that was definitely bad Right. We all agree that was bad and I think there's a lot of reasons outside the scope of this show. I yes it would be better, but I think no one's arguing that Right, we just got to figure out how to make it happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Are you worried that there isn't a mechanism for the fire department to expand with the city If they're capped by the House Bill 2 and lose the sales tax revenue?
Speaker 1:No, because if we get inflation back to where it was before 2022, it was only one and a half two percent, and for most of that time the cap was 8%, and so most ESDs raised their property taxes by 8%, 10%, no, well, they could raise their property taxes by a percent of the previous year, but yeah, minus the cap.
Speaker 1:So if you hit the 10 cent cap then you can raise even more. So it went from 8 8 to 3.5, with the 3.5 only for the largest esds in texas, which are only like three, and esd2 was one of them, because I think the limit was 15 million. I don't we can look it up, but if your revenue was more than 15 million some minimum number then you're subject to it all the other ones they could still go to eight percent because they're much smaller.
Speaker 1:So that's how they bracketed that law. Even though that's cap right and that's what your council likes to focus on, sales taxes are not capped right.
Speaker 2:Sales taxes sky's the limit and that's why it was less than a million to now you know, we're looking at like $10 million. I think it's $17 million. $17 million, right.
Speaker 1:It's significant and those have been rising significantly and when I looked at it it was huge. Yeah, it was nothing, and now it's in the millions of dollars and it's far outpaced your property tax revenue which, yeah, now it's kept at 3.5%. So if we're growing, if we're adding more home, those people are paying property taxes, they're spending more money in the community and that sales tax will also increase and that should be enough to sustain and maintain.
Speaker 2:What if that sales tax is eliminated in November?
Speaker 1:Well, that will be a hit. Yeah, that will be a hit to how much you can generate, because you'll only be getting a half a cent in the areas outside of the city. But hopefully the city picks it up and then they'll be. They should be more than willing to give a portion of that back for emergency services, right? Either that you know, the worst case is they would set up their own, but that doesn't make any sense. To set up their own, right? We already have the infrastructure in place.
Speaker 1:I'm sure they will do the right thing and the ESD2 board will agree to an amount that is agreeable by both sides and just give that money back. Right, that's the only thing that makes sense. Doesn't make any sense, right? People are saying, oh well, yeah, there doesn't make it. Yeah, you're right, it doesn't make any sense for the city to establish their own. We already have the buildings, the infrastructure, the people, their trainees just utilize them. If the worst case happens and they don't agree on them out and the city has to do it all, right you guys won't be laid off because, all right, let's say somehow they find the money well, they'll have to pass a bond, they'll have to pass a bond and buy it, but the people are laid off in this theoretical standpoint.
Speaker 1:They'll just go there. Right? You got, I think you said in your last podcast, and I agree there is more vacancies and emergency service responders than any other job besides, maybe teachers. So you'll just go work for them, so nobody needs to be worried about losing their job. You just might be working at a different agency.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think if you, I gotta get you to ride along because you're such, if you, I got to get you to ride along because you're such a smart guy, I need to get you to absorb more with the fire department. But it would take. I think your scenario that you just described would probably be true, but would take three to four years to make happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah but it would be asinine if they actually tried to set up their own. It doesn't really make sense. We have the infrastructure already in place.
Speaker 2:And that's what they would have to do if the city and the ESD2 board. It could be possible but it would cost more money.
Speaker 1:I don't want anything that costs more money, especially since we've already paid for that infrastructure. That's. The other option is they can buy it from ESD2. All right, we'll buy this and then take it over. But why do we need to do that?
Speaker 1:Just come to agreement and let the current people that are doing the work, that have done a great job, continue to do it. And you know, stop debating over over. We feel we need more money. That's what it's kind of come down to. And everybody has plenty of money, from what I've seen, more money than they know what to do with. But if you're given the chance, they'll figure out a reason to spend it. And the city obviously has figured out a reason to spend it and ESD too has.
Speaker 1:But just live within your means, like we all have to right, we, we all have a job and we have a budget and we live within our means. Yeah, we would like more. There's always things that you know we can wish, we would like, but you know, everybody has to live under constraints and I think our governments need to do the same.
Speaker 2:All right, Anthony. So, given everything that you know and you definitely know a lot about this from this November, whether to abolish the sales tax revenue for the fire department, how are you going to vote, If you don't mind saying yeah, I'll vote for it.
Speaker 1:You know I'm hoping that it's a shift right, but it's a two-step process because of the laws of the state. We have to take it away from one entity and then another entity in the city should pick it up, and then the city can give it back to ESD2 and ESD2 can continue resuming the same level of service with ambulance transport, and everybody will be happy, right. So that's how I see it right now. Ideally, I wish there was a measure that we voted on our commissioners and then I could maybe run or put people that I know and help them be on that board to more work cooperatively. Right now I don't feel like they're listening, there's not a lot of cooperation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they don't listen to the people.
Speaker 1:At least the city council members are willing to listen and I think they'll do the right thing. So, yes, I'll vote for it, with the planning that the city will take that and be able to establish emergency services, hopefully with Travis County ESD2, and nobody loses their jobs and we can get rid of the private ambulance companies. Esd-2 can continue to do it like it was. What is it now? Two years ago, three years ago, and I think everybody would be happy. That would be nice. There would be a lot of ifs in that scenario?
Speaker 1:Well, anthony man, I just love the way that you explain things.
Speaker 2:I think I'd love to get you to do some write-outs, or something Sure, On my apparatus and man thank you for coming on the show. Yeah, no problem If we get some follow-up questions or something would you be willing to come back Anytime?
Speaker 1:All right, cool.
Speaker 2:All right, well, thank you so much. Great thank you. So. So that wraps up our episode. Thank you so much to our listeners for tuning in and thank you to Anthony for taking time out to come on the show. And you know, if we don't do anything else, I think that what we've really done is educate our community and, hopefully, inspire other people to get involved and take leadership roles. You know, if you don't like how things are going, you can complain about it or you can do something about it, and hopefully you've learned a little bit more of how you can make that happen.
Speaker 2:We talked about sales tax and how that works. We talked about the challenges with the budget and the forecasting for the ESD, and we also learned that the vote needs to be a two-part process if any of that money is gonna end up going to fund EMS. We also learned that there's a sentiment from people who want the ESD Board of Commissioners to be in an elected position. Tune in next week because we're going to be talking to ESD2 Board of Commissioner Vice President, april Griffin. Commissioner. Vice President, april Griffin. She's going to talk about her perspective as a commissioner and as a Pflugerville resident and how she sees this topic from her perspective. So tune in next week for Pflugerville on Fire.
